Curse

Thom · Dec 08, 2006, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Does this skill have a role in competitive PvP monking.

skillsbas8 · Dec 08, 2006, 02:37 AM // 02:37

The smaller the team is, the more useful this skill becomes. I use it in TA and such because it is much more powerful when damage is more controlled and comes at a more steady/ slower pace.

master_of_puppets · Dec 08, 2006, 02:52 AM // 02:52

This skill pwns in arenas. I think it could be used in HA but then you'd have to drop rc, or have 2 prots. In GvG, maybe could be a little useful but probably not. Certainly not as much as BL, HB or w/e.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 08, 2006, 03:12 AM // 03:12

It's so bad. Really, really bad.

10 energy, which means you have to have 10 to cast it, without a guaranteed return on it. For the secondary effect to trigger, you have to basically let them be to the point of death. As the meta becomes more pressure oriented it becomes more viable, but not to the point that it's worth trading off for the utility of every other good monk elite in the prot/divine lines.

Glimmer is a lot better and it's still pretty trashy.

ZB seems good if you're running infuse to get yourself back up to (near) full, if you can manage your vamp weapons properly.

JR will come in here in a bit and trash talk this skill, so I'll wait for him to get on, then read the trash responses of those trying to defend it and chuckle.

Drewfense · Dec 08, 2006, 04:20 AM // 04:20

It is a little less energy:heal efficient than GoH, but it is still a good heal that can self target in a prot line (self targeting prot heal is almost enough to warrent an elite). The thing that always comes up in these conversations that is kinda strange is "having to wait for someone to die to cast." When you need the energy versus heavy pressure, everyone is going to have very low bars and you will get the bonus. If the other monk "is beating you to the heal," just do a little coordination.

You lose condition/hex removal of some sort going with a ZB or LoD, but I think it helps fill a lot of the weaknesses of the dual prot monk backline. The main reason I would say ZB > LoD atm, is that ZB is really nice versus Grenths Dervishes.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 08, 2006, 04:36 AM // 04:36

I will give you the 'nice versus Grenths Dervishes' part, that alone makes it slightly more appealing. However, if facing significant pressure, wtf is your heal party guy doing? picking his nose? If a lot of my teammates are hitting ~50%, I know what I'm spamming... the +54s coming every few seconds is going to make zb tricky to pull off, along with a multitude of other variables such as overheals.

skillsbas8 · Dec 08, 2006, 04:58 AM // 04:58

As I stated however, in TA and less so in HA, pressure is higher as you will not have the E/Mo spamming heal party. Also, the smaller the competition, generally more predictable and controlled pressure applied to your party is. It is easier to wait for the benefits, of the <50%. This skill is largely worse in GVG however, where the HP spamming help with pressure and damge is more difficult to control.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 08, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Does this skill have a role in competitive PvP monking.

RA and TA are not considered 'competitive' by a large portion of the community, though ZB is indeed pretty decent there.

Patrograd · Dec 08, 2006, 07:03 AM // 07:03

It is a really nice skill on an infuser imo, and is seeing more comeptitive use than this thread implies

Etrik · Dec 08, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Although they are competitive and r1/3 Glad = r3/6 Hero when it comes to high-end PvP guilds/HA PuGs recruiting.

Also, how is it a nice skill for an infuser? 12/12/12 healing/prot/divine? Seems crazy to me. Infuse>Touch - w00t

skillsbas8 · Dec 08, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Its good on an infuser because the healing spec is rather unimportant and a zb on the infuser is a free 180 point heal because they'd be at half or less.

sir lockt · Dec 08, 2006, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Although they are competitive and r1/3 Glad = r3/6 Hero when it comes to high-end PvP guilds/HA PuGs recruiting.

a bit off topic, but I believe the high-end PvP guilds dont recruit on ranks whatsoever, but on experiences with the player...so guesting ftw (since there are so much ways to boost your ranks...which you can call lame... you can even solo-farm your HA rank together :s)

On the topic, I will use a quote from this thread:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0075031&page=2

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

Quote:
Originally Posted by Byron
Not at all Yue - Since gift of health has given the flexibility of monk builds, I've tried some pretty odd things. Mo/W with YAA is especially terrific in a 4v4 arena, especially since the shadow prison fad. And deadly riposte is especially appealing against assassins.

Yup. With Gift, your Elite skill really is just a bonus and not a core part of your build. The key skills are:

Reversal of Fortune
Spirit Bond/Prot Spirit/Shield of Absorption
Gift of Health
Dismiss Condition/Mend Condition

I've tried some pretty wacky stuff. Mo/W with "Charge!" and Soldiers Defense... Mo/Me with Signet of Midnight... Mo/W with Auspicious Parry... Mo/D with Avatar of Balthazar...

Mostly just messing around for fun, but it goes to show how flexible you can be with Gift. Which is why the Core/Nightfall only play-offs suck for Monks.

I agree with that...so in fact the answer to this topic is: yes... Benedicition can be viable... but imo not the best option...

Patrograd · Dec 08, 2006, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etrik

Also, how is it a nice skill for an infuser? 12/12/12 healing/prot/divine? Seems crazy to me. Infuse>Touch - w00t

You dont need high healing attrib to run infuse.(much less than for GoH for example). Infuse>touch is 15 energy and touch has no further utility and requires significant spec into healing to be worthwhile. Infuse>ZB is 10 energy, and ZB has alot of utility especially against the kind of high pressure stuff flying around atthe moment, and requires no significant spec into healing and is a really nice self heal for a monk getting trained by thumpers or grenth dervishes

*Disclaimer*

I am not a monk, just reporting what monks have told me :-)

Thom · Dec 08, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Thanks for the input. You guys basically confirmed my feelings on ZB in gvg: ok when used with infuse, suboptimal otherwise. Gift of Health and ZB don't synergize well and if I had to choose one I'd take GoH.

I'm hoping this isn't just a bunch of group think. Will be pointing a few guildies to this thread anyways.

Seamus Finn · Dec 08, 2006, 09:49 AM // 09:49

I thought the skill was very mediocre and so I've done a fair amount of testing and found that it works from viable to near broken in the right build/circumstances. The most abusive thing I've got going is a Mo/E bar with Infuse, ZB and glyph of lesser. Why? Here's how ZB and infuse work, you infuse drop to a health set 30 below your norm(highest set will usually be this if you don't want to devote another set to this funtion). ZB yourself for free. That's... good. Here's the better synergy: glyph and ZB. Why? Glyph on it's own its GREAT emanagement on a monk bar now since it can give you 20 energy on two ten energy casts on a normal monk bar(without the aegis junk). That's better than mantra to be sure given its 5 energy cost 30 sec recharge to 10 energy on mantra and teh 10 less second recharge isn't a huge gap and its non elite slot. Now, add in ZB. You are fighting a strong pressure group. The second ZB can be risky with the 4 sec gap between heals(although you can sig of devotion waiting for ZB to recharge, so it isn't TOO terrible an idea to try), but if you are clutch and pull it off heres how ZB works. Normally you spend the ten energy and gain ten energy, so it tecnically isn't a free heal, you regain the energy you used on the spell. Now with glyph, the ten is accounted for and you boost 10 more energy. Landing two gives you +20 energy and two huge heals, really netting you 40 energy. Of course, with infuse, you throw up glyph get a free infuse, weapon swap, get a free heal back to full and then gain 10 energy. THIS idea makes the skill very strong if you can sub ele on your monks and have substantial hex removal(you will probably run veil on this bar). To compare the way ZB works to an ele running heal partys is kind of ridiculous though. ZB is big heals for free on targets that are usually under heavy enough pressure to warrent a 200 hps heal. Heal parties are for cleaning up damage that spills onto other characters through AOE, mass degen, etc. Unless your party gets decimated by group aoe, an e/mo shouldn't be letting his whole team get to 50% life anyhow. To say one can compensate for the other is just not true in either case(the HPs are more vital in most builds though, but again, they don't solve the problem that ZB does). So, given the flexibility of the Gift prot monk, ZB can mean gg to pressure the way divert can be gg to hex builds.

Agyar · Dec 08, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

Thanks for the input. You guys basically confirmed my feelings on ZB in gvg: ok when used with infuse, suboptimal otherwise. Gift of Health and ZB don't synergize well and if I had to choose one I'd take GoH.

I'm hoping this isn't just a bunch of group think. Will be pointing a few guildies to this thread anyways.

I'm now confused as to whether you're asking about 'competitive pvp' as stated in the OP or just GvG, cause they're two different answers, as outlined by many posters.

Of course, since the unnamed majority of players don't consider TA to be competitive, I guess we can only ever talk about things in terms of GvG (or perhaps HA).

Thom · Dec 08, 2006, 11:03 AM // 11:03

The discussion went something like this:
Monk "I really like ZB, it has been working great for me in arenas".
Me "I don't like ZB and wish you'd run something else for GvG, especially since you aren't running Infuse."

Realize that nothing in my quote said anything about TA and I see how ZB is potentially very nice in a 4v4 environment. I feel that this discussion kind of proves that skill choice depends on the environment. In TA being below 50% health is much less of a risk than in GvG, so waiting for someone to drop below 50% before healing is a feasible strategy where in GvG it is a liablity. Also in a two monk system you have overlap issues. I really like TA, but I mostly GvG-- most gvgers recognize TA as the second most competitive gametype.

I've run Glyph of Lesser/Aegis/ZB in PvE, but I'm somewhat attached to my Assassin secondary for GvG because of the durablity and movement. That said glyph of Lesser energy is very nice and deserves regular abuse.

Zuranthium · Dec 08, 2006, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

ZB seems good if you're running infuse to get yourself back up to (near) full, if you can manage your vamp weapons properly.

"Seems good?"

It is AWESOME.

ZB/Infuse and Divert Hexes is my current favorite monk backline. Before the EF nerf I ran them as Mo/A, now I'm more favorable towards Mo/E.

~Z

Thom Bangalter · Dec 08, 2006, 12:07 PM // 12:07

What? I don't play monk.

JR · Dec 08, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I don't dislike ZB as much as I used to, and the other monk in our backline enjoys using it in our split build - largely due to lack of Gift of Health in the play-offs.

Outside of this bizarre limited situation, I see no reason why you would run ZB in 8vs8. Gift is a very efficient fairly spammable heal, and doesn't eat up your elite slot - allowing you the luxury of a stronger more versatile backline such as RC/Divert, which is what I run outside of NF/Core builds.

The exception obviously being in split heavy builds, or 4vs4 Arenas.